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Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition » hunting gazelles: why not?
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Topic Subject:hunting gazelles: why not?
kibi
Inactive
posted 01-17-99 09:22 PM ET (US)         
i have been studying opening theory and have a question for those who can constantly manage quick tool and bronze times: can u pit gazelles as your second food building, especially when they are beside another resource? i usually play the granary first opening and as i explore potential forests for my wood pit, i oftern find a herd of gazelles grazing beside them. would it be beneficial to take some lumberjacks and berry harvesters, kill the gazelles and then pit beside them and the resource? i understand gazelles decay, but not quickly enough to make a significant difference. each gazelle is also 150 food, the equivalent of a berry bush. the extra wood i conserve by dual pitting can be used for extra food building, fishing boats, or others uses i have. however, it takes precious time to hunt them and my vils sometimes have to travel a small distance to the pit. is this a great idea that saves time and resources, or does it hinder more than help?

kibi

failure is the stepping stone to success


[This message has been edited by kibi (edited 01-17-99).]

AuthorReplies:
Elijeh
Clubman
posted 01-18-99 01:22 AM ET (US)     1 / 15       
Gazelle can be god to eat. but generally i'll bypasse them as a Food source. Too much management. but if ya got say 10 vills free..do it kill five deer, and put the pit best ya can between the deer and the wood(gold). Put 2 vills on each carcass and get some yummy deer jerky


Desert_Fox
Clubman
posted 01-18-99 03:20 AM ET (US)     2 / 15       
Not only are they tasty, but they are the seccond thing I look for. When looking for a wood site, SF, ele, or deer should be a MUST for a good brnz time. I think those that bypass them are overlooking food that could shave time off your Bronze's :-)

DF


Phil_The_Great
Clubman
posted 01-18-99 04:59 PM ET (US)     3 / 15       
I do hunt gazelles. It is the food source that I hate the most. It is never the first source of food I'm going for some very obvious reasons (do not want to spread them with a low number of villies and do not want to loose too much food to the decay process). I however go for gazelles for my 2nd food source (if no fishies of course!). First, you can put your pit next to another ressource like stone/wood/gold at the same time. Second, gazelles require micromanaging and chances are that I have time to manage them when I got less than 20 villies. Later in the game I find it very annoying to go for gazelles when your population is at 25+ and you got to think war. If I can, I keep the elephants for later since they're easy to eat and manage.

What I hate the most is when you need another source of food (lets say your berries are alomost gone) and the only thing you found as a replacement is a bunch of 4 gazelles with no other ressources next to it. Spending so much wood for so little food!! Sometimes you do not have the choice and go for such a bad food source...

Phil



lshaul
Clubman
posted 01-18-99 05:45 PM ET (US)     4 / 15       
Elijeh has made a good point about hunting gazelles. Kill all the gazelles in a herd first so they don't get the chance to spread out. This hunting strategy works best in no or low lag games. In high lag games it is hard to control the villagers and they tend to start harvesting the first gazelle killed before the order to kill the other gazelles takes effect. Allowing the herd to spread out more. Yes gazelles are a good food source. Shore fishing is faster then hunting however. I think the rates for gathering are as follows: .60 for shorefish, .45 for hunting, .40 for both berry picking and fishing with boats or ships. Thanks Emowilli and Thorfinn for the data from your posts. This data is also available on several websites and in the forums here of course. I can only remember that Blackdouglas has compiled this data but his site has merged with another site. I think it can now be found at Telcontar's site. Did Telconatar have his own tables for this or was that someone else? Well someone else also has tables that can be downloaded. Check the links at AOE Heavan and at the MSN Zone.
Hunting is faster then berry picking but some food does decay. Actually quite a bit of food decays from gazelles. I have heard that elephants decay at a slower rate and my own obervations agree with this though I have not taken the time to quantify the decay rate of elephants. Depending on how many villagers you have harvesting an individual gazelle the food that will be harvested can vary greatly. Even if there are 15 villagers on one gazelle with a storage pit 3 or 4 tiles away about 20-25 food units are still lost. I have found that harvesting an entire herd at one time with say about 10 villagers means if I put two villagers on each deer I will loose about 50-100 food units of each deer. The distance between the gazelle and the storage pit is the second most important variable in how much food is harvested from any one gazelle. The most important factor being how many villagers are harvesting each gazelle. So it is better to use 10-15 villagers on a single gazelle in the interest of efficiency. However the other gazelles get scattered in the process of hunting so there is a limit to the efficiency gained. Using the maximum number of villagers needed or 15 villagers per gazelle means distance is not a factor in the decay process. However this means the other gazelles in the herd are scattered over a larger area then if I had simply killed the herd outright. This will cause the collection time of the food to be increased while the food is being transported to the pit. Please note 15 villagers can not fit around one gazelle at the same time. Also decay occurs even while villagers are harvesting food from the gazelle. This means some food will always be lost.
So what balance should I strike between food decay and increased time to collect the food? I'll start with a number of assumptions: 1, I want to harvest the gazelles as my FIRST food source. ;2, I am working from a start with 3 villagers and low resources (150 food). Without using statistics and working from experience I will attempt to explain my theory. After having built two house I build a storage pit next to one herd of gazelles and a forest. I place the pit as close to the forest as possible which might mean some gazelles are scattered in the process. To minimize scattering I try to place the storate pit off to the side of the herd. Now I have five villagers and another two being created. Next I try to choose one gazelle at the herd edge to minimize the scattering of the herd. If the herd is densely packed I will kill two or three gazelles to harvest. I don't kill all the gazelles in the herd outright. I do this to avoid loss of food to decay. Yes the gazelles will scatter, sometimes a long way. I place at least one villager on each gazalle if I have killed more then one. After having finished harvesting the first gazelles killed I take my villagers who now number between 7-10 and hunt the other gazelles. I will look for one gazelle I can kill without scattering the remainder of the herd. At this point I may have one or two villagers on wood. All of my hunters I place on that one gazelle. Next I hunt any individual gazelles. If there are two or three grouped gazelles and they more then 3-5 tiles from the storage pit I will harvest the group of gazelles. If they are still close I will harvest one or two only. I will continue with this process of harvesting as few gazelles at one time as possible to avoid scattering the remainder. Sometimes a gazelle can run very far away. In this case I will simply ignore that gazelle if I have found a better food source or have built a granary already.
Please note that a number of different variables can improve or degrade the effectiveness of this strategy. Gazelles can get boxed in between the pit and the town center in which case when they run they stop near the town center. In this case spend more time gathering from one gazelle. If the gazelles start scattering into the edges of a forest they might be reachable with only one villager at a time, something to be avoided as this greatly increases the loss of food to decay.


kibi
Inactive
posted 01-18-99 06:14 PM ET (US)     5 / 15       
thanx for the input so far. reply to this post if u haven't yet. any suggestions are appreciated.

kibi


lshaul
Clubman
posted 01-18-99 06:28 PM ET (US)     6 / 15       
MISTAKE: As per Emowilli the rates for hunting and berry picking are .45 and farming is .40. I'm not sure about that though. I think hunting is faster then berr picking. Farming is the slowest method of food gathering. Shore fishing is without a doubt the fastest method.


lshaul
Clubman
posted 01-18-99 07:09 PM ET (US)     7 / 15       
Okay I was wrong. Emowilli's numbers are correct. Here are the rates:

Shore fishing : .60
Hunting : .45
Berries : .45
Farming : .40
Fishing boats : .40
Fishing ships : .40

These numbers are from a post by Neilkaz dated 12/19/98. He was comparing Palmaria to other civs. I used the search option for the forums.


Sting
Clubman
posted 01-18-99 08:24 PM ET (US)     8 / 15       
I personally dont like gazelles. If you hunt them all at once, then you lose meat to decomposition, if you hunt only one each time then you have to manage the hunters constantly. Eles are ok, but i dont normally pit gazelle alone. In the beginning of the game i never pit gazelle unless im shang or maybe persia. I will pit forest/two eles...


apocalypse77
Clubman
posted 01-18-99 08:53 PM ET (US)     9 / 15       
Actually, I think the rates for fishing ships are faster than boats. This is something my friend and I noticed. I haven't checked this, but it looked like fishing ships collected twenty food in the time fishing boats collected fifteen. I might be wrong though.


Thorfinn
Clubman
posted 01-19-99 00:45 AM ET (US)     10 / 15       
The actual collection rates are the same. Both take 10:25 to empty a 250 spot, i.e., 0.4/sec. However, since ships carry more and move faster, there is a huge increase in efficiency because by the time you get ships, the distances are greater.


Keep your stick on the ice.

Ender
Guest
posted 01-19-99 08:19 AM ET (US)     11 / 15       
Yes, I hunt gazelle every single game. In fact I will hunt gazelle as my first food source if I see them by a forest or by enough stragglers, berrie first is one of the worst starts on a water map IMO. It slows your dock down to the 3rd building, and with a granery start you almost never get a dock going until the 12th+ villager, gazelle by a forest and my dock is being built by the 10th villager.


neilkaz
Clubman
posted 01-19-99 11:13 AM ET (US)     12 / 15       
Here's a rough guideline as for when a granary first start will be effective with non-Shang in ROR if you desire to boat boom somewhat. It is all based upon how much wood is near your TC. In general you need 160 wood near your TC or you will have problems building the 4th house and the needed wood pit if you go granary first ! With 50 food civs when I have a normal starting position w/6 guys on berries ASAP(usually losing some time to create peon 8 unless I found them quickly relatively close to TC) The next 7 go on wood duty and build houses as required.Maybe one of those 7 is still exploring. I usually have 120 wood to pit the forest while peon 14 is being created and I use that wood for the SP. The 30 wood I need for the house usually ends up being deposited at the TC quickly and I often build the 4th house with 2 peons just after 15 is born. Why 160 wood ? Well you need 120 for granary, 120 for SP, and 120 for 4 houses minus the 200 you start with. What about a dock ? That comes ASAP after my wood pit and now with wood flowing in quickly peons 16 and 17 can be sent to the dock site(s). Off course I will need another land based food source soon or my hoped for 24 real peon economy will tool at about 13 min !If I have MANY stragglers and/or a CLOSE forest I may get by without a wood pit for a while and even get a quick dock with a few FB's out much sooner. If I have a few good stragglers close to TC I can also get that wood pit sooner since the woodies waste less time walking. However, I you don't see 160 wood near your TC, and you hope to boat boom, you'll be slowed up if you go granary first. This is why Ender will pit deer by a forest ! Now, he has food for a few peons while he finds another food source . When the deer are done he can switch all those guys right to the nearby forest and boat boom while I assume using another land based food source to keep 50 food coming in every 20 sec . So if I see 160 wood near my TC or maybe 2 75 wood stragglers and I see berries fast and didn't see a wood/fish spot or nearby deer next to a forest, I instantly go berries first.. which is the majority of the time for me in ROR. ... neilkaz ...


kibi
Inactive
posted 01-19-99 06:46 PM ET (US)     13 / 15       
these suggestions are so great! thanx again and continue posting. i am learning how to increase my advantage in the opening by knowing what to do with the resourses i have close to me at the start of the game. i had never considered pitting gazelles as the first primary food source, but now i can't wait to have an opportunity to try this idea.

kibi

failure is the stepping stone to success


Ender
Guest
posted 01-20-99 09:14 AM ET (US)     14 / 15       
your lucky nei1kal, I get 160 wood within seeing distance of my TC in about 1/4 of my games. I do basically the same thing if I'm stuck with berries first, but I'll usually take up to a 5-10 second delay to look for a wood pit start first. If you can find animals/fish by a forest its so much stronger than berries first that its worth a few seconds delay on 1 villager. My usual start is pit/dock/dock/granery. With maybe 10-30 seconds delays on villagers in there, while the fishing ships take over food production. The granery is only built to speed up tool and so I can get the small wall upgrade.


Thorfinn
Clubman
posted 01-20-99 10:14 AM ET (US)     15 / 15       
And the Market


Keep your stick on the ice.

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