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Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition » Gripeing on Scythes
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Topic Subject:Gripeing on Scythes
Elijeh
Clubman
posted 01-17-99 01:10 AM ET (US)         
I Believe Sythe chariots are WAT TOOOO powerful. And i'm coming from the user angle, not victem angle here. I mean with an upgrade cost of only 1200 wood and 800 gold you have the greatest, I.E. most useful super-unit in the game, i mean no gold to build, they are availble before their wouldbe counters(lanxes, Cents WE and AE) because of the cheap upgrade cost. Not to mention their faster... My man gripe i guess is that you have to really be prepared for these guys..and with their cheapness(not to mention their requiremnet, nobility, can be complete as you iron) they make devasting units. AND they can hack up any early iron unit, OR avoid it. Not to mention they split Med walls apart. i mean their worst enemies(Balista towers, AE, Cent sand hels) are slower to get researced. why? Cuz all their requirements are Iron age uupgrades. Scythes seriosly unbalance RoR. now i wouldn't mind if Hcavs could at least kill'em. and HCav needa kill Camels too. And go ahead..flame Away...


AuthorReplies:
TauCeti9
Inactive
posted 01-17-99 01:45 AM ET (US)     1 / 15       
There is one reason why i dont care how powerful they are or how cheap they are.They go a long way towards solving the overpowered siege weapon problem.They do have thier weaknesses though, as you mentioned.so i believe they are balanced.Except for egyptian scythes.Those are a little bit of trouble for everything except cents.

TAU


ricktsu
Inactive
posted 01-17-99 02:02 AM ET (US)     2 / 15       
yes i think scythes are pretty powerful....i use them alot. now egpyt has extremely powerful scythes. i now thta i usually play a 3v3 and one of the first things my teamates and i do is gold thievery. basically if the game makes it to iron and allies are stable then he who controls the gold basically controls the game. so for the civs that do not get to get teh gold??>.. i think that is where the scythes come in..if you are short on gold and dont think you will find anymore..spend your last 800 on that scythe upgrade. i think they are pretty powerful but i know that i get mowed down often by infantry....i dont know maybe they do unbalnce the game a little....but i dont think they have ever given me a real advantage but yeah maybe there should be a counter to them for the civs that dont get them..nothing worse i think then having low gold and not able to do anything in iron except make archers that suck vs any other iron unit....how about an upgraded chariot archer w/ two bowman in it....i mean doesnt it really suck when you are deprived of the wheel and if you run out of gold you really cant make an effective army???


Indigo
Clubman
posted 01-17-99 10:10 AM ET (US)     3 / 15       
Scythes are not as overpowering as they seem.. ever try sending a horde of scythes versus hittite ha's and cats? the results are not pretty at all. Egypt's scythes do very well, but other civs only have 137 HP scythes. 3 hits from a cat and they are dead. The situation often is that your first wave avoids the cat fire, but the HA mow them down, then the second wave gets hit by the rocks meant for the first wave, wiping THEM out, and the 3rd and final wave gets closer than the last two but the HA mow them down in the end. Not what I would call overpowering

Scythes are the perfect answer for all cat armies and civs like egypt. If Egypt got armoured eles, but not scythes, they would be far less effective than they are now.


Elijeh
Clubman
posted 01-17-99 01:32 PM ET (US)     4 / 15       
Man...scythes cost only wood and food..so sending countless waves at the enemy(i've both been the user and victem of this) will wear down their gold. Also Scythes Totally altar the iron age balance. If a civ dosn't get scythes they suck. Why? no other unit can compete(except for HA , yeah right). and even Ha are mowe ddown, cuz of superior numbers...Hell i've hit a hittite enemy with around 400 scythe sby the 22 mark..he has like 10 Ha. Tell me what chance he's got? Hcavs needa be able to fight scythes. but they can't. Oh and don't say sychtes cost more cuz they don't...that 1200 wood is easy to get.


Stooge_Farsan
Inactive
posted 01-17-99 03:29 PM ET (US)     5 / 15       
WOW --- "... 400 scythe by the 22 mark ...", Elijeh, what civ did you use ?

Even 40 is still incredible by 22 mark --- with shang, I may manage to get 10-15 SC by that time

SC is a cheap but effective war machine - like soldiers from Norht Korea


Stooge_Farsan

Indigo
Clubman
posted 01-17-99 03:35 PM ET (US)     6 / 15       
True, the upgrade is easy to get. I like scythes, but they have their limits as i described in my previous post. A hittite using a strategy like that forces you to back up your scythes with EA, if you're egypt. even war elephants are good since they can take in the damage while the scythes mow eveything in sight down. But, a civ without scythes is no as worthless as you think, because:

Heles and ballistas can mow down scythes in groups. Take a choson army. They can use legions, back by hele fire. The scythes will be in big trouble without any cats to support them. they'll all be on the floor within 10 seconds if they try to take down a force of 10 or so heles, and unless you attack from multiple directions you won't even take out a few.

True, scythes are cheap. but gold units have not lost their value. You can defend any base against scythes with guard towers and fortifications, and in that case it is hopeless to try getting into a base with scythes alone.

Finally, have you tried taking down a hittite with a scythe only force? any reasonably good hittite player can get to iron, wall in, and happily build a nice hcat and ha force. And as long as he defends properly your scythes can't touch him until he gets his own army.

Let me draw this from experience. I was once playing as shang, my enemy hittite. I decided to go with 50 scythes to raid his base. I lost all 50. However, when i decided to bring along 20 hcavs, and 15 or so ha's, only 3/5 of my scythe force was approxiamtley wiped out. hcav and ha forces remained pretty much the same. that is a demonastartion of how effective scythes can/cannot be. Long live scythes!!!


BBB5
Inactive
posted 01-17-99 03:38 PM ET (US)     7 / 15       
I Love Scythes. BUT, i've never been a victim of a scythe hoard either. I did try it against a hittite player, yesterday in fact.

My first two waves died, but inflicted even loses. By my third wave (15 in each wave) he was down to 100 gold. (he told me so)

As they would die i would send in the next group, i could have kept it up forever

And he couldn't couter them, plus i had priests waiting for him if they failed. I had soooo much extra gold that it wasn't even funny


BBB5


lshaul
Clubman
posted 01-17-99 04:53 PM ET (US)     8 / 15       
I think we all agree we don't want to eliminate scythe chariots, well everyone except Yamato players. The upgrade is too inexpensive Elijeh? If the upgrade were 1600 food instead of 1200 wood that would make the upgrade harder to get. Still if you can field 40 scythe chariots that early in the game then it's your economy that is making the difference agaisn't your opponent.


Elijeh
Clubman
posted 01-17-99 05:58 PM ET (US)     9 / 15       
Okay Scythes are too cheap to upgrade to. I was palmy the other night. I made it to iron by 20 had swarms of scythe sby 22. All my enemies were dead cuz all i did was endless hordse of scythes by that time...Nothing but scythes..Walls were smashed, everything smashed.
I love scythes..however i propose making a fix(maybe Hcavs stronger) to make the game more playable. And by the way the realy effective SC rusher *****you with chariots first..then those upgrade to Scythes... and believe me by only buying chariots in bronz ei can shave about a minute off my iron. the n i bash anything i see with chariots, and the nthey become Scythes..rut-roh...


Baal_Hadad
Inactive
posted 01-18-99 10:20 AM ET (US)     10 / 15       
Indigo, you have a valid point about the Choson army vs. scythes, but there's an *easy* counter to it. I played a five person free for all once... I was Phoenicia and one of the other guys was Choson. Before long, we were the only ones left. My elephants and scythes were dying BADLY to his heliopolis, so I spread out everywhere. Every time he killed a town, I had another town (or two) pop up somewhere else. Slowly I was working on damaging his army in any way possible. I'd send swarms of scythes just to get to his heliopolis and kill a few here and a few there.

After a while, I offered him a draw. He laughed at it. Then I said "How much gold you got left? When you run out, I've still got scythes." He resigned. All you have to do with Choson is outlast the gold...

IMHO, he'd have done better at the time to switch over and try longswordsman/legion swarm. I was abusing his gold reserves because I knew he didn't have chariots.


Indigo
Clubman
posted 01-18-99 07:48 PM ET (US)     11 / 15       
Hmmm... good post Baal_Hadad, however i think it was more of you out-economizing him , and him being an inexperienced player versus scythes than scythe total dominance. Also, phoenicia's cheap eles make a big difference If i was that choson player, i would:

Wall up and make ballista towers for excessive defence. this forces *you* to bring your gold elephants. It is then that i attack with my helepoli, and convert any elephants heading my way. In fact, i would convert elephants in the middle of your scythe force.

Legions are a must for every choson player. helepoli alone are not enough. For every scythe wave i would build 20 legions, 10 ha and 7 helepoli approxiamtley. This should seriously slaughter all scythes. Priests in the back for any armored eles.

But this is a great tactic, gold units vs. scythes. however, gold units are far superior when it comes to ability. Scythes are *not* unstoppable. Possible counters:

-Helepoli : rip scythes apart, approximatley 4 hits needed.
-HA & Cats: very devastating. Extremely hard to even get close to a force like that with scythes alone.
-Ballista & guard towers: scythes take ages to damage these.
-Centurions: these can rip the guts of scythes, akin to how the cents could rip apart normal chariots.
-EA: mass these up, and they will have a really hard time killing them. 600 HP to work through!

So, while that choson player did lose, he didn't have much of a future with the way he played. True, i submit that wave after wave is an effective way of winning a game with scythes only, but to do that you must seriously out-economize your enemy. Any player, especially choson, can tower up forests, get control of gold on the map by walling it in, and simply using any of the above mentioned units to counter a scythe only force. Choson especially can use the above-mentioned tactic.


Baal_Hadad
Inactive
posted 01-18-99 08:02 PM ET (US)     12 / 15       
Absolute agreement here. I'm not arguing the dominance of scythes-- I think they are the *worst* superunit, with the possible exception of legion. I was just responding to the earlier statement that there's no chance of a scythe player against Choson.

The smarter Choson player would have towered the map once he realized I was spreading out, and used logistics and legion to meet me all over the map-- you can spread a force out everywhere if you have logistics and a high pop limit. As it was, he allowed me to run him out of gold-- and running out of gold for a Choson player is almost as bad as a Greek... (except with Choson I guess you can still build nice towers.)


Sting
Clubman
posted 01-18-99 08:21 PM ET (US)     13 / 15       
choson ballistas are almost useless unless you can hide em behind some ballista towers


Elijeh
Clubman
posted 01-19-99 04:45 PM ET (US)     14 / 15       
hittite Cats..backed by hittite Ha? fought that'un..trashed it. Look for an even medicore army of Ha and Cats i can have like 15+ scythes...dispatch 10 to his base, and keep 5 waiting. sooner or later he sends his Ha to defend home base. I mash his cats then come in and mash his ha. and should he keep those cats defended i can alwasys hammer his army with scythes,while killing his peons. NOT to mention cats are worthless vs. scythes. And Ha behind cats won't stop 20+ SC. Now i love scythes. but their cost is too cheap. I mean almost any civ can get 1200 wood and 800 gold and nobility by iron. and then upgrade to scythes..and use normal chariots untill ya get'em. And yes they are the weakest super unit. but their THE CHEAPEST. the only super units that are cheaper than scythes are AE(which in reality are more expensive,cuz for a decent army of AE yer shelling out around 200=gold, and 700+ food), which the sythces run by. And should a choson player put himself behind walls. well if i'm hittite i can always bring in cats. Scythes dominate anything but Heles.(and how many of ya' see tons of heles by the 25 mark?) and heles also require an iron age uopgrade(2 infact) to be researched. What 2? ballistics(not required but your heles aint gonna hit a thing) and craftsmanship. and for hittite HHAs to kill scythes they have to shoot 14 times..Thats plenty of time for the scythes to get in close and mow'em down. see scythes can be beaten..By other superunits. but how many games do you have other supr units by iron? scythes require only a bronze age technolgy(nobility) to be researched, while all other super units(and towers) require some iron age technolgy to be researched(and HHAs need nobilty, ballistics,and alchemy to be any good, not to mention the range upgrades). and an army of Cats and Has is VERY gold intensive. Scythes need to have some kind of iron age tech to be researched..but oh well leave with what ya got. SYCTHES RULE!


O_Captian
Inactive
posted 02-02-99 04:47 PM ET (US)     15 / 15       
Its simple, scythes represent a new rush, the true iron rush similar to the bronze rush. No, they are not the best units on a one on one basis, but they are cheap, fast, quick to make, and take no gold.

When I have scythe rushed, I have often suffered more losses than my opponets....however, I have won those games. In addition, every decent strategy article written states that you must have a mix of units, will you win just w/ scythes, yes against marginal players, however, scythes matched with other units are tough to counter.

My preference is Hittie, so I like playing w/ a few cats up graded to heavys followed by WA, all the while being pop'd out, waiting for units to die with more qued up.

Further, if you are fighting w/ scythes, you don't just charge the mob straight for the enemy. Micro manage and break them off in groups, all you have to do is get a few into their bunch, and with their area damage they cause serious damage.

Another group does the raiding of peons, and the last takes the hits and dies. Keep coming never stop, burn them out of gold, once I have HC, I used them to take trees on enemy gound....thus crippling them of their scythe food.

My one cent.


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