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Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition » a few comments on slinger rushing
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Topic Subject:a few comments on slinger rushing
Videre
Inactive
posted 04-14-99 05:40 PM ET (US)         
OK. Having recently read the sliger rushing guide by Nosoup4u, I've been trying to utilize it in any game where the conditions look right. While I am by no means very good at it yet, I have found that it tends to be very effective.....against people of my playing ability or less.

I have found, however, that tool rushing is not very popular. Today in 4 games I was alternately called a cheater, a bore, and a pu**y. Interestingly enough, 2 of the 3 times the insult came right before the opponents resignation. I don't understand this. I have found it increases the fun of playing the game and makes what used to be a pretty tame stage of the game a very exciting one. I've lost because of a faulty rush as many times as I've killed the other guy, but the game as a whole was much more enjoyable. Does a tool battle ruin the game for any of you?

Also, I've noticed that if you commit to the rush and therefore sacrifice your bronze time by (for me) 5 minutes or so, you better have an ally or two you can depend on. I've lost more than a few times because I took out one opponent, but my allies got creamed by a quick bronzer which left me rather defenseless. In fact, I am thinking a tool rush is not quite a smart idea if you are unsure of your ally's defensive capability. Of course, that's true for me cause my bornze times suck so bad after rushing, unlike a better player would have.

Anyway, I thank everyone for the info on tool wars ('specially you, Nosoup4U) it's really incresed my enjoyment of the game.

Videre
(APC_Videre)

AuthorReplies:
Chanchito
Inactive
posted 04-14-99 06:05 PM ET (US)     1 / 22       
Actually it only works if your partners can hold their own or its a 1 v 1. In a 3v3 if your partners are not pushing back their opponents, you will get hit by the pocket guy in a 3v3 bronze or iron units and it game over for you. If your parnters are keeping thme busy, its great, cause most people don't expect a slinger rush. If you throw in some axers, its curtains.
Hemlock
Clubman
(id: S_Hemlock)
posted 04-14-99 07:45 PM ET (US)     2 / 22       
Those who oppose tool rushes are missing out on an important element of the game: Getting the right balance between economy and military.

My experience has been that in rookie games, other players rarely scout or forward build, concentrating solely on getting to bronze (or iron) and building as large an army as possible before attacking. While this does make for spectacular battles, I'd rather not wait for 30 minutes before seeing any action.

As for being called names, ignore them and find better people to play with. (The "cheater" label might have been justified if it was a "no rushing" game, but you didn't say it was, so I assume it was not.)

fangr
Inactive
posted 04-14-99 10:12 PM ET (US)     3 / 22       
I've had the same thing happen to me on several occasions, however, I'd say that in a large percentage of games where I tool rush noone complains, while I get a few complaints from people when I chariot rush (?) I suppose that's just a statistical anomoly and the people I bronze rush who complain would complain just as bad when I tool rushed.

I suppose it's all a matter of how battle hardened your opponents are... usually the people who complain are the ones who have 12 vills after 17-18 minutes.... The better (or more average rather) players seem to accept it as a part of the game.

kurtiebird
Inactive
posted 04-14-99 10:53 PM ET (US)     4 / 22       
Don't you understand, Videre? By attacking so early, you have disrupted their happy little village and turned it into flaming rubble. You have probably ruined the game for these people; maybe they can return it and get Sim City

Kurtiebird
Veni Vidi Vici
kcochran@kc.net

Potejon
Clubman
posted 04-15-99 08:42 AM ET (US)     5 / 22       
What is kinda wierd is that I praticed slinger rush in single vs a few comps and they sent all their vills to beat up on my 4 slingers they died fast, also the next 4-8 ones to got to have the same threathment, had to tower just so they left my slingers alone, do slingers usually die that fast??
Or is this just a weird single phenomenon?
Thorfinn
Clubman
posted 04-15-99 09:06 AM ET (US)     6 / 22       
Well, 1 Slinger vs. 1 Villager at point blank range is pretty much even up if you already have Stone Mining. Slingers will die in hordes if you haven't researched it yet. With the upgrade, they have the same attack, attack speed, armor and HP.

I will admit that I have not yet run into NoSoup4U's slingers, but I have yet to lose to a slinger rush, or even be seriously hurt by slingers alone, and almost always give better than I get.

The best part of being on the receiving end of a slinger only rush is that with most players, you can count the number of barracks out there by counting the number of slingers that show up every 24 sec. Once you have repelled the attack, build your own slingers and punish them for their insolence at the rate of 125 wood per barracks.

Keep your stick on the ice.

armagedn
Clubman
posted 04-15-99 10:09 AM ET (US)     7 / 22       
Although I have yet to try an all-out slinger rush, I now augment my armies with many of them (I used to apply them only defensively, vs. towers or bowmen).

Actually, I just finished a 2v2 where I managed to eliminate both opponents w/ my slinger/axer/scout combo, while my partner went boom (or perhaps back to bed), and his cavalry didn't arrive until I was nearly done w/ the second town center... moments later, victory (long expected) was secured. Go slingers!

NoSoup4U
Inactive
posted 04-15-99 11:16 AM ET (US)     8 / 22       
Ahh the much anticipated slinger rush backlash, it took a while but its good to see

A couple of things I will re-iterate.

1) Better tool in 10 mins or less against good players
2) Not walling is stupid and will get you killed
3) Know your partners, if they suck...BOOM
4) Work on your bronze time, you should be able to pull 17 minutes even with the rush

If you can pull this off this strat IMHO will almost always be at least a draw against whoever you do it too. Remember for most players the "I'm being tool rushed run around" with there economy is something most people don't practice or respond well to. This is a distinct advantage.

I hope I didn't make the impression this is the end all strat, I axer rush, pick on people w/ upgraded scouts, fake rush and boom. Its just one item to add to your repetiore if you want to be a versatile player.

Videre
Inactive
posted 04-15-99 12:27 PM ET (US)     9 / 22       
>>>>>>>I hope I didn't make the impression this is the end all strat, I axer rush, pick on people w/ upgraded scouts, fake rush and boom. Its just one item to add to your repetiore if you want to be a versatile player.<<<<<<<<<

Indeed. I think for me the important thing was that slinger rushing opened up the WHOLE world of tool warfare. Trust me, I've seen the downside of a poor rush more than a few times. One of my worst habits at first was to sit and watch the little stoners in all thier glory as they scattered the enemy and wreaked havoc in the enemy town. When their allies finally sent help in the form of CA's or cavs....only then would I go check on my idle berry peons.

Also, one of the benefits of praticing the rushes is that I've learned alot about how to defend them. Wheeee! What a ride!

Videre

Sebsoft
Inactive
posted 04-15-99 02:20 PM ET (US)     10 / 22       
Ive been playing alot of 1on1 hell country lately and i always take assy and i have seen numerous slinger attacks... The fast villagers means that the big mass of slings can just be ignored by fleeing. The problem with slings is that u must make a big pile of em elsewhat they just get boned by villagers. This means that u will undoubtly bronze later than your opponent since u must comit to a all-out tool rush. We all know what happends when bronze stable units meet the non-armored slings so these better kill your opponents villies or they were useless. I think that alot of ppl dont use the scouts enough these are perfect to find the villagers spots but like I said fast villies just run too fast to get touched by the slings. For that reason i think that a scout rush in front a fast civ is better. Of course the armored clubs which come quicker can also be dramatic as youre opponent might not have the ressource to build a new stocking pock and is probably not walled-in when it comes. Also I think that if u tool rush you should continue pompin villagers to build a gap in the villager count between you and your bronzing opponent. You should also mine stone to be tightly walled-in but never build towers if u got too much stone put the miners on food gathering: towers are just a bad idea. Now in a tool war i think that the best units are the slingers unless your opponent goes axemen in which case u should make armored archers to stand in front the non-armored slings. Scouts just cost 2 much to be produced enough to win a tool war. In my opinion tool rush is not lame what is lame is ppl who thinks that they are safe until they're bronze and dont build defenses or have no plan in case they are rushed.

On the other hand the Nique-pique technique is somewhat lame. For those who arent familiar with that its done in stone with a small group villies (foward builders) with a fast civ on a slowciv. U take those 2 villagers and go beat on the gatherers of your opponent. When he realize this is gonna send a bunch of is villies to defend and then with your faster villies u just run away. Then u wait a bit and come back causing havoc and in time u will weaken their production and sometime kill some villies. So in my opinion its the villager fighting which is lame since these are just 2 dumb to defend themselves when attacked. By the way from what i've heard the nique-pique is the #1 reason why ppl just played assy/yammy wars in AOE. I played about 5 games in aoe on the zone am a ror player and didnt have the chance to play alot of those AOE assy tool archer/CA games. On the other hand now im hooked on assy their fast villies just offers u much more options and their CA are good. On the other hand their iron and navy is not that great... They dont get any good melee unit in iron (unless u count the catafract which costs 2 much) but they do get my favorite gov center upgrade the balistic and their siege gets the helos and hcats (with no engeneering though) which means that they are not the worst in iron...

fangr
Inactive
posted 04-15-99 04:54 PM ET (US)     11 / 22       
"We all know what happends when bronze stable units meet the non-armored slings so these better kill your opponents villies or they were useless."

Just as a point, if your opponent runs away form your slingers the first thing to turn them to is the opponents town center. Assuming your rush hits in < 10 min, you should have ~15-20 slingers by 12 min in all working the town center... Now unless your opponent is absolutely amazing and has an incredible position (in which case I doubt you'd survive anyways) you should be able to take out the town center in less than 13 minutes if your opponent flees... Now it's kinda hard to get cavs when you're not in bronze... I learned the hard way that finishing off a town center is of utmost importance when the enemy flees.... Don't make that mistake yourself... and ALWAYS wall in... you should have the stone to do it (should be mining stone like mad)

Sebsoft
Inactive
posted 04-15-99 06:16 PM ET (US)     12 / 22       
It takes about 1 minute to blow up a TC with 15 slings. Which cost 600food and 150 stone. Sounds ok. Slings build in about 25 seconds. With 3 barracks it would take you indeed 2 minutes. If you tool in about 10 mins your 15 slings army will be up at 12 mins and yeah you're right the tc should be down by 13 mins or less and players usually dont bronze in 13- mins (unless you're really fast on hell country at least). Well it happened to me the other day I did rebuild my tc and then launch my bronze. It did slowed it up a bit but in a tool rush i really prefer to kill peons than a tc personnaly. Maybe im wrong but killing 200wood and perhaps some houses is really crummier than killing 10 villies which equal 500f and economy production. Plus its not like u cant cancel your bronze delete the tc and rebuild the tc on the opposing side of the map and start the bronze upgrade there (indeed the 200w can be tough to get). I just think that paying 600food and 150rock to destroy a 200w building should be considered a failiure.

I dont go with all out tool rushs nowadays (like a slinger rush since u gotta have a mass of em or they get boned) but i sometime like to send like 3 armored archers or 3 armored clubs into the wood production of my enemy. If you send 15 slings to destroy 200w and I send 3 armored archers to kill 5 peons guess who has the best tradeoff.

My point was more that fast villagers are really great at fleein this kinda slow attack units and that once you're bronze that big investment of yours will just die horribly since it doesnt get armors.

Dont get me wrong a slinger rush can be really great just like any tool rush I personnaly think that u are left with less option tough since you must commit entirely to it coz of the villager boning factor. Plus ppl might see u coming with the achievments or by seeing barracks. An might bone your slingers before you get a critical mass. Perhaps is it safer to build em at home since no wall cant stop em anyway (15 unupgraded slings blows a wall in 15 secs) so that they dont get boned until they get the required high numbers.

Donovan_Darius
Inactive
posted 04-15-99 07:36 PM ET (US)     13 / 22       
Well, the TC should be a concern because the very chance of costing your opponent 800 food is too much to shy away from. Yes, the opponent can stop the upgrade, but doesn't that waste a lot of food depending how close the upgrade was to being finished? Also, destroying the TC at least buys you some more time for your tool units to destroy stuff because he has to rebuild the TC and wait for the Bronze upgrade to finish all over again. Thus, I can understand the reasoning behind taking out the TC.
fangr
Inactive
posted 04-15-99 08:09 PM ET (US)     14 / 22       
Quite true, any intelligent player is going to rebuild after cancelling the upgrade... But usually the right course of action is while your slingers are destroying the tc, build a stable and get scouts... Otherwise you have food (I'm assuming you still have an econ after slinger rushing which you'd better) and wood sitting in the bank. Hopefully you find their new base. If not, keep searching and try to find base while simultaneously taking out any tool buildings that they have build (make them waste more time and wood rebuilding those buildings). If you still haven't found it, well, you're in trouble definately... keep searching and destroy houses (waste more vill time + wood cuz they can't get a military in bronze without housing). And hopefully you find them in time to get your slingers at their econ... Theoretically though if you haven't found their new base and they bronze, you're doing pretty badly... But you did remember to wall in didn't you ? So after those first 2 or 3 scouts you should be getting food in and walling like mad... because you have stone (you need to be mining for tons of slingers)
Maybe you can survive to get to bronze shortly after them. At very least, you've caused them to run to a remote corner of the map (ie wasted villager time) rebuild a tc and hopefully a tool building and a few houses plus a new storage pit (ie 400-500 wood is very difficult for a fast bronzer to save up... boomers on the other hand....)

If your opponent sees your barracks , you need to produce axers as soon as they start boning slingers... Or if you're like me and don't do good enough scouting and end up building your barracks up against the enemy's town center (I did this earlier today lol) Axers are your last resort.

In any event when you all out tool rush, your first priority is to make sure the enemy doesn't get bronze. Second priority is to make sure the enemy doesn't have the econ to do anything if they do get there. Normally if I don't do SIGNIFICANT damage to my opponent's economy, I don't even think about bronze (the obvious exception is a team game).

Now in a team game, bronzing in a reasonable time is important... You can't commit to an all out rush (unless you know your partners are rushing also). But you can still bronze in a reasonable time (17 min) with a decent slinger rush (while at least hurting one opponent). As has been pointed out, make sure you know your partners and their competence level. It's much better to do a standard bronze boom when your partners aren't going to see bronze any time under 25 minutes. As an example the earlier game where I was axing away at my opponents tc, took it out... (3v3) He didn't bronze till 30 minutes in as a consequence (I had killed 5-6 vills + some buildings too) However I hadn't bronzed (as I was rushing) till after I decided that I needed to be to defend from the other players (at about 20 min in I pressed the bronze button) Both my partner's reactions were "You're bronzing already!" And I knew the game was lost...

In any event slinger rushing is a tactic worth trying at times, but I'll agree that it's not a cure-all. Booming is much better a lot of the time. I'll agree it leaves you with a lot less options and isn't very flexible. But neither is Axer Blitzing... It works given the right situation. As someone else mentioned, it's just another alternative to add to your list of options.

Steve Ryan
Inactive
posted 04-15-99 09:37 PM ET (US)     15 / 22       
I just love it when I see his 10-12 woodies start boning my first 4 slingers.

The next 8 with market upgrade just slaughter them. At least 50 % of the time my slinger rush takes out about 10-12 vills and 20-30 % of the time another 5-6 at a relocation spot. If this happens you have won. He can run, hide, relocate all he wants, the advantage in early bronzing he may have probably 2 mins will be outweighed by the fact that you have at least 15 more vills

To avoid this the first instinct with a slinger rush is bolt.. Donít bone. Wack up a new pit and start again. Throw in the 4 Slingers you should have made at home Barracks to defend you town centre. With good micro management you should be able to defend you base long enough to bronze from your original TC.. 1. Forcing the attacker to defend against you own (fewer slingers) and 2. Attack your base Barracks instead of you TC. and 3. Probably pump out more slingers once he sees defenders and further delay his own bronze. If you lose less than 4 vills you are on track to repay his rush in bronze.

If you calculate that your bronze upgrade will take longer than it takes him to destroy your TC then delete it (ensuring that you have the wood first of course) and starts your new one immediately. Whatever you do, donít just hope (know) you have enough time to go bronze if you lose that 800 food you are dead ! Remember you can bail out at the last minute but keep a close eye on it.

This will only effect bronze times by 30 sec or so. You should still be 1-1:30 ahead of his bronze. Remember none of his attack has effected food and all spare vills should go to wood to build bronze req. buildings.

I most games I play against good opposition you can be sure that when you are about to rush so is your opponent. I have found an another effective strategy at home is to leave your main base early (especially with woodies) leave a few behind and a farmer or two and couple of woodies as red herrings. Your docks are safe Ďcause 1. They are away from you TC and 2. you can quickly add a scout boat that makes a mess of archers or slingers. So while he rampages through your town thinking its all you have you still have lots of wood and food coming in. leaving some red/dead herrings in your base makes it less likely that he will keep searching ! By the time he finds your woodies you should be defending them with cav/cams/cas.

I would say on Balance that I lose ĺ of games where I donít tool rush (against good opposition).
And I lose 1/3 of games due to being tool rushed (these are usually against players I would lose to wether they tool rushed or not).

Slingers are definitely the most effective rush.. cheaper than scouts faster than axers (no upgrade required) and bowmen (no building required, barracks already built) !

Moral of this is you must tool rush against a good player or you are dead !

neilkaz
Clubman
posted 04-15-99 10:54 PM ET (US)     16 / 22       
I really make a point when I tool rush to try to kill his peons. I will always have a scout or two to find him wheh he runs. If I only kill a few peons and then kill his TC I honestly haven't done that much damage in a 3v3.

ALSO YOU GET ALL 800 food back no matter when you cancel the bronze upgrade. It can be a pain in his neck to kill his TC, but my first target is his villager population. When it is clear that he has run FAR away and is likely safe, I may then stop chasing and take his town down, while preparing to bronze and resist his ally's counter attacks.

I am not saying that killing his TC is usless, however, it isn't my first target in a 3v3 when I tool rush... neilkaz..

LoST_Armageddon
Inactive
posted 04-15-99 11:49 PM ET (US)     17 / 22       
What about tool attacking at about 12 minutes, once you start bronzing?

Get about 30 villagers/boats and build 2-3 barracks near him. You should tool at about 11 minutes or so (if you had a good start).

Building slingers with your food as you bronze and sending them to attack could mess up you opponent enough to make it easy for your smaller-than-normal bronze army crush him.

You would also be semi-protected if his teamates attacked you. You wouldn't be stuck in tool.

I don't know if the loss of Bronze military power is worth a late tool attack though.

Tell me what you think, and if you have ever had sucess with this.

LoST_Armageddon

BurchaQ
Inactive
posted 04-16-99 06:24 PM ET (US)     18 / 22       
SLINGERS CANNOT RUSH. Well, I am bored of that slinger rush. SLINGERS ARE TOOL UNITS AS ARE BOWMAN. But they don't have an armour upgrade, nor do a much damage as bowmen do. They are slow, useless aganist axeman, and too slow in production to be called a "RUSH". Slinger Rush is a "I Am Playing New Bies, And I Wanna Kill Them Easily" strategy.
LoST_Armageddon
Inactive
posted 04-16-99 11:04 PM ET (US)     19 / 22       
Slingers may not be a "Tool Rush" unit, but i consider them to be Tool age Compies. Once you have a decent size group of them no tool age unit stands a chance.

Bronze age units, however, will rip apart slingers just as Iron age units (specifically cats) will do to compies.

LoST_Armageddon

NoSoup4U
Inactive
posted 04-16-99 11:29 PM ET (US)     20 / 22       
BurchaQ,

Thanks for setting a newbie like me straight, I just can't seem to learn anything in the two years I've played this game. I hope to beat somebody NEXT week.

Don't mean to be bitter but it works, sorry.

Cherub Sting
Clubman
posted 04-17-99 07:20 AM ET (US)     21 / 22       
Well if I play cont, then I almost always boom to about 38 vills/boats minimum, and I can actually pull a half decent tool if my mouse click would register a little more often. But regardless, another thing that I like to do is send about 6-8 slingers at the enemy. This will slow me to bronze about only 15 seconds, since I have a small surplus of food. 8 Slingers can really throw a guy off, and thats what im looking for. If he makes Axers with +2 attack or something, then I just give up on the rush, take my scout vill and pull him back a little, and build some archeries. I have succeeded here, considering he has spent way more than I have to defend his town, and may very well be delaying bronze (although not likely).

Slinger and bowmen really rule, so if you lead with slingers, and then a little later throw in a bunch of bowmen, even axers would have a hard time getting to you.

By the way, does anyone know of ANY 2 bronze age units that can kill 20 slingers? If you do, please let me know.

ChubbyHubby
Clubman
posted 04-17-99 07:56 AM ET (US)     22 / 22       
Hey Sting,

Now why didn't you post this article BEFORE you whipped my butt with your slinger rush. When I saw that your villie had found me I asked RajunCajunBoy and Borgboy12 if you liked to rush. They said they didn't know, so I started walling anyway. The problem was I walled the wrong part of my base first, and by the time I got to walling where you were it was too late.

The other great thing about your rush was that after a, minute or two, you bronzed and your chariot archers blew my tool units away. It was a good learning experience, thanks

------------------
Turn'em and Burn'em!

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