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Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition » "From North Carolina..." The Best There Ever Was!!
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Topic Subject:"From North Carolina..." The Best There Ever Was!!
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Angel Draco
HG Lawgiver
posted 01-14-99 11:36 PM ET (US)         
#23 Michael Jordan
13 Seasons w/the Chicago Bulls; NBA Titles-6; MVP Awards-5; Playoff MVP Awards-6 (NBA record); 1985 Rookie of the Year; Career Scoring Avg-31.5 (record); Playoff Scoring Avg-33.4 (record); League Scoring Titles-10 (record); Highest Points Scored in a Single Playoff Game-63 (record); Number of Seasons Scored 2000+ Points-11 (record); Total Points Scored-29,277; Number of Games Jordan Scored less than 10 points-1. I'd list more but this post would get too long! Click here for the Jordan Archives.

I only got to see him play once, during the 1997 NBA Playoffs vs. the Utah Jazz. There is absolutely nothing in life I have found more thrilling than watching Michael Jordan play basketball. Thanks Mike. *sigh*


"Sometimes I dream, that he is me...Like Mike, I'd like to be like Mike."
[sung to the tune of our favorite Gatorade commercial]

Angel "Proconsul" Draco


AuthorReplies:
armagedn
Clubman
posted 01-19-99 05:28 PM ET (US)     26 / 31       
Andy, I don't believe most people resent basketball players' salaries - I think most of the resentment comes from those who make millions w/ very little effort (Derrick Coleman leaps to mind... well, shuffles to mind). Resentment rose considerably in the wake of the strike, w/ has-beens & n'er-do-wells like Patrick "3-step" Ewing & Alonzo "Little Patrick" Mourning whining & griping about not being able to make all those child support payments.

And even tho I agree that companies should pay to keep their top level talent, comparing a business where the CEO makes 1.5 million to a sports franchise where the towel-boy makes 1.75 million (+$800K signing bonus) is a bit far-fetched.

Also, I think your comment "they should be paid more," caused Jerry Reinsdorf to cringe (Dickey Simpkins should make MORE than 1.5 million/year???)

* * *

OldGrex - Thanx for the compliments. I'd be happy to indulge in all that unused nitrous....


postapokalyptic
Clubman
posted 01-19-99 06:00 PM ET (US)     27 / 31       
Ok Andy, let me put this accross while restaining myself asmuch as possible.

I could care less about how much they make in comparison to how much I make. I do not resent these players for what they have accomplished. I would think that should come accross somewhat in my post. I have little care for riches in my life, to the point that I wont describe. But let me turn your first question around to you with a twist.

If you were offred a 10 million dollor contract, would you haggle over an 11 million dollor contact? And exactly how much do these players contribute to each team? What about coaches and management? But Im getting off track here, because I believe allot more then the professional athletes are at fault here. And can you seriously relate to a player complaining that he cannot afford his usual 10 Million dollor home? LoL! I really feel bad for the guy. Spoiled children is all I can say. They recruit children out of High School, not thining about the influence it causes. how many role models can you truely say exist in the NBA? how many truely try to improve the world? If I ever complain about having to sell one of my eight cars, I swear I hope someone beats me to death like I deserve. People dont think about the world around them at all. Maybe I am concentrating on the NBA players a bit more here, but thats because of the nature of this thread. How many NBA players have you heard truely try to motivate others into doing something for our future children? They have the spotlight now, and all they can use it for is more money for themselves. This is my resentment for them Andy, so please dont try to put it in another light. I could live out in the wilderness without ever seeing a penny and probably live a happier life then the many people I see around me in the city. Let people hunger and sorrow over a piece of paper. Let them cry when their car gets stolen and rejoice when their Rich uncle dies. It only shows why this world will someday turn on itself.


MacRat
Clubman
posted 01-19-99 06:10 PM ET (US)     28 / 31       
I think the best line from the lockout has to be, "Well, yeah, we make a lot of money. But we spend a lot, too."

One guy from the Spurs (who will win the championship this year) who made only 1/4 of million dollars last year, was sleeping in him mom's house because he didn't have dime to his name.

MR


andyhre
Clubman
posted 01-19-99 07:04 PM ET (US)     29 / 31       
Post:

Didn;t mean to seem like I was persoanlly going for you -- no harm meant!

But to answer your post, yes I think if you think you can get $11 million you're selling yourself short not to at least negotiate for it. I don't think it's wrong when we're talking $11 an hour vs. $10 an hour and I don't think it's wrong $11 mill vs. $10 mill. If the team's managment thinks $11 mill is still a good deal, great, if not, then the player has a chocie to take $10 mill or try to get more elswhere. Greed is not takeing $11 million from a multi-millionaire. Greed is asking $100 from regular folks for an autograph.

As for coaches and management, very few NBA coaches are able to bring fans into the stands or in front of the TV. Phil Jackson was able to turn Chicago from a good team that relied too heavily on one player into a dominant champion team, but for every Phil Jackson, there are far too many non-entities who don't add much to their team. They still earn good money -- better than I'll ever see, and I don't begrudge them it, but if you try to see where the value is, it ain't in coaching.

Nothing you say is wrong, per se. Whining about not being able to afford 8 cars makes the players seem lame. Wishing that these very rich, very talented young men would do more for others is laudable.

However, the NBA players (and other pro athletes) are not the only people to make a ton of money and not serve as role models, give to charity, etc. People ought to care about community and give to others regardless of what they earn. I think it is unfair to say to someone: "Because you earn a ton of money, that means you have to lead an exemplary life." Being a role model is NOT in the NBA standard contract. When players *do* "give back" it's great, but I really think it is unfair for someone like me (or maybe you) to make demands on someone else's life just because they are well paid. if they made all their money in the stock market, we'd never know who they were and whther or not they volunteered with youth, etc...

In a different world, more people would be like you, Post, and care about the spiritual and the profound. it would be a better world. But I think it is really unfair to criticize people who live in a capitalist society from playing by the societal rules. If *I* made $10 million, I'd be sure to give time and money to others, and I wouldn't complain about having to sacrifice, but I'd also ask for more if I could.

I think singling out sport players as the problem is wrong. The problem is what this society values -- $17.6 billion for 8 years of NFL TV broadcasts and yet no one wants to pay $400 a month for a poor family to eat. Sports would be less lucrative to players if people paid less to view them. Until they do, I maintain it is fair for the talent to get the dough.

The other thing I think people miss is that the players are taking it from the owners. Owners are not these saintly people roaming the streets, looking to give money to the poor, but then these 6'10" guys come and take $5 mill out of each pocket. These are business men who have valuable assets in an NBA franchise and who make lots of money every year (do not believe it when they say that 25 teams lost money -- they doctor their finances so the team loses money but their other businesses, like arena ownership, make a ton). No one who buys a franchise is unaware of the cost of players or the potential for profit. No one has lost money on the sale of a team in years. These are MUCH richer men than the players and no one made them buy a basketball team. They locked out the players so they could make even more money and yet they seem to get all the sympathy. When was the last time you saw an NBA owner hanging out with disadvantaged youth, providing scholarships, etc. I am sure some do, but some nBA players do too.

Again, I meant to offend no one. I just feel like pro athletes get a bum steer. When they take out a gun and rob a bank for their money, then I'll jump all over them (figuratively). When they merely hire an agent who negotiates them a sweet contract, I say more power to them.

Andy


andyhre
Clubman
posted 01-19-99 07:26 PM ET (US)     30 / 31       
Again, in the spirit of friendship and good natured discussion, I wanted to add that there are many, many CEOs who earn more than Michael Jordan. $1.5 million is WELL below the norm for a say, Fortune 100 company, if you include stock options.

I went to Edgar, a service of the SEC

(http://www.sec.gov/cgi-bin/srch-edgar)
and looked up Microsoft's proxy statement. A proxy statement is a public document for all publicly tradec companies. It is also called a DEF 14A, and you can look up the top 5 salaries of every company.

Anyway, there is a guy named Paul A. Maritz, who is the Group Vice President for Platforms and Applications. In 1996 his base salary was $244,382 but he had $191 MILLION in exercisable stock options. That's more than Kevin Garnett! You might think maybe he was with the company for a long time, which might be true, but take another one of their executives, Robert Herbold, the chief operating officer. Here's what Microsoft said about him:

Mr. Herbold joined Microsoft in November 1994. Microsoft offered him an
attractive compensation package in order to convince him to leave Procter &
Gamble after over 25 years at that company. He received $250,000 upon hiring,
and received $250,000 per year for three years, payable at each of the first
three anniversaries of his hire date. He received stock options for 1,300,000
shares when he joined the Company.

He was like a free agent that the lured with a bg signing bonus. He received 1.3 million shares of Microsoft. At today's price of $155 per share, his "signing bonus" is worth $200 million dollars. Do you think this guy Herbold did more to make money for Microsoft than Michael Jordan did for the NBA? How many people are asking Herbold to give back to the community?

This is all public info. I got it at

http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/789019/0001032210-98-001061.txt

Andy
p.s. Microsoft is not the only company like this. I check Chrysler (pre-merger with Daimler-Benz) and in 1996 Robert Eaton earned $1.4 mill in salary, $4.5 mill in bonus, over $2 mill in other compensation and received stock options worth another $4.5 million. That's less than MJ, but more than Scottie Pippin. All this for a firm which found it could not compete without being taken over by another firm.

[This message has been edited by andyhre (edited 01-19-99).]

[This message has been edited by andyhre (edited 01-19-99).]

postapokalyptic
Clubman
posted 01-19-99 08:09 PM ET (US)     31 / 31       
Well, a few comments in your post seemed to overooked a few things I mentioned. Maybe those comments were in general, but let me reiterate some important points:

"Maybe I am concentrating on the NBA players a bit more here, but thats because of the nature of this thread." Pretty much like it sounds. I do not believe ProAthletes are the only ones at fault.

"...I believe allot more then the professional athletes are at fault here." Again, just to restate.

Now, to address some additional points that you brought up.

"Didn;t mean to seem like I was persoanlly going for you -- no harm meant!"
I didnt think you did. I have allot of respect for you after reading your fair share of posts in the AoK forum. Just a touchy subject I guess.

"Greed is not takeing $11 million from a multi-millionaire. Greed is asking $100 from regular folks for an autograph."
Somewhat true, when compared in that light. but what is done with the $11 Mil is what bothers me immensly. But that is a bit too subjective to discuss I guess.

"I think it is unfair to say to someone: 'Because you earn a ton of money, that means you have to lead an exemplary life.' Being a role model is NOT in the NBA standard contract. When players *do* 'give back' it's great, but I really think it is unfair for someone like me (or maybe you) to make demands on someone else's life just because they are well paid."
I have allot to say on this part. First of all, I think it is fair to expect just as much out of these people as everyone else. The problem is how much we expect out of people overall is insultingly low. These people have the spotlight, and that is why it shines a bit brighter on them (and also because of the topic of this thread.) And it makes me laugh how true that comment is about NBA contracts. The only thing an NBA player worries about is exactly what is in their contract. Absolutely nothing more. To think that we may need to specify 'Be Nice' someday is all too plausible.

"In a different world, more people would be like you, Post, and care about the spiritual and the profound. it would be a better world. But I think it is really unfair to criticize people who live in a capitalist society from playing by the societal rules."
I dont want people to be like me. These are my beliefs, and I could of course be wrong. But I do feel strongly about them and that is why I have brought these issues up, hoping that others may look at them and contemplate the state of this world. Living in a capitalist society is an excuse, nothing more. Something that humans are so good at. We constantly make excuses on our actions. We must realize that every single person who ever breathes has a serious impact when making decisions throughout their life, which greatly affects everyone around them, and so the chain continues. Until we stop making excuses so easily acceptable, this chain will continue to grow in length, until it chokes the very life out of us all.

"The other thing I think people miss is that the players are taking it from the owners."
the issue here isnt where the money is coming from, but what it is being used for, and what morals are derived from it, etc...

"do not believe it when they say that 25 teams lost money -- they doctor their finances so the team loses money but their other businesses, like arena ownership, make a ton"
After a mere two years of accounting, I cant count how many ways I know to falsify final numbers.

"Again, I meant to offend no one. I just feel like pro athletes get a bum steer."
No offense taken. And maybe athletes do get a bum steer, but I guess it just depends on whether or not you think they deserve it.


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