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Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition » MINOA vs MACE
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Topic Subject:MINOA vs MACE
VagrantKnight
Clubman
posted 03-30-99 11:01 AM ET (US)         
I have been reading a lot of posts describing the virtues of these 2 civs in bronze. Who wins in a 1 vs 1? Assume a non-islands watery map like narrows, coastal, med or cont where the water is very important but not necessarily decisive. Also assume a huge or gig map. Finally, assume that both have average starting positions.

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Vagrant Knight

AuthorReplies:
Jehu
Inactive
posted 03-30-99 12:54 PM ET (US)     1 / 16       
If the game is won in bronze---most 1v1s are---I like Mace. Their half-priced STs allow greater numbers which will take care of even Minoan compies and their ST companions, while the Mace compies and hoppers protect those STs from cav and camel attacks. Once on his feet a fully developed Mace bronze force of STs, compies, and hoppers will steam-roll the map. Home defense will be the problem while you are out trashing the minoan town. Both civs military's are slow moving, so relocating villagers can rebuild and prolong the game giving each a chance to iron.

Iron age should belong to the Minoan with a superior economy and unit options. Once the Minoan can achieve critical mass with Cats and Helops, Mace is doomed. Then the Minoan starts his/her own steam-roller.

My $0.02

Jehu

[This message has been edited by Jehu (edited 03-30-99).]

banana_man
Inactive
posted 03-30-99 04:25 PM ET (US)     2 / 16       
Well, i can't give such a technical answer as Jehu did, but i can certainly give a positive answer.
I always play Macedonia, except when another player picks Sumeria who basically mash them. In my estimation, Macedonian are the best civ in bronze: their army can be cheaply built and, although slow moving, can destroy another players town in minutes.
Against Minoa they once again will win. Macedonia have some fast moving cav if necessary and of course minoa compies don't cut down the hoplites advance like they do otherwise. In other words, macedonian advantages take affect against minoan, not the other way round.
And yes, i admit, minoa are the stronger in iron, but the object of a good ror player would then be to stop minoa getting to iron.
Prove me wrong someone, it shouldn't be hard

THe pIEMAN aka Rabbit_Pie

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[This message has been edited by banana_man (edited 03-30-99).]

WarLust
Inactive
posted 03-30-99 05:05 PM ET (US)     3 / 16       
I am using Mace a lot more now when I play for fun. I just love their LOS for non-ranged units, especially for the villagers. Their vills can find optimum dock locations for fishing, sweet spots, and find the enemy without being noticed. However, I still think Minoan has a superior bronze than Mace. I rate the following civs based on their bronze.

1). Hittite-no doubt this all around powerhouse dominates bronze with double HP ST's and +1 attack CA's

2). Minoan is a close second....long range comps are just simply devastating

3). Mace is my choice for third....bullet-proof hoppers, comps and half-price ST's

Mace vs Minoan 1v1 on water maps....you should expect Minoan to win, although not easy if Mace has a good economy. Minoan simply has too many advantages to go with on a water map. They will out boom Mace with cheap fishing boats and they have a better economy since they get the wheel and better farming. If Mace can build academies close to a Minoan's town before he has researched comps, then its over for Minoan, but Minoan will put up a nasty fight with their superior economy. Odds are Minoan will win more times than Mace. In Iron, their is no contest as Minoan will wipe out Mace with cats/helos.

For non-water maps like hill country or even highland, I would say Mace would win more than Minoan. I use Mace a lot on hill country and its really nice to have that +2 LOS for their vills. They find tons of food where the Minoan might miss, and since Minoan loses its greatest economy bonus, cheap fishing boats, the only edge it has is having the wheel and I wouldn't consider that a determining factor in bronze.

In any case, Mace needs home protection since their vills can't simply run away from attacks. They need comps, ST's, and hoppers stationed around farmers, gold miners, and woodcutters. If you can fend off invasions and concentrate on using your units close to the enemies base, then Mace has a great chance of winning against any civ in bronze.

If I were Mace vs Minoan, 1v1, on any map, I would try and take out Minoan in Tool. Mace has a superior Tool.

-WarLust

The_Who
Clubman
posted 03-31-99 00:48 AM ET (US)     4 / 16       
From my experiences, when all things equal mace wins. I think this is because they do not have to wait for upgrades for the hoppers. A mace players HAS to build outside his opponents town, cause their army is too slow to start from the base and make it there fast. So right when mace hits bronze he can have hoppers pumping in about a minute. Also their own comps and cats which come up later help to kill minoan even more so.

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The Who

Cherub Sting
Clubman
posted 03-31-99 00:58 AM ET (US)     5 / 16       
Well, I think the minoan wins here. Better economy is all the mino needs. If the mino can hang in there until iron, they can really dominate mace with their full seige...minoa completely owns mace in iron.
Spam
Clubman
posted 03-31-99 07:20 AM ET (US)     6 / 16       
I think the best way to defeat Minoa with Mace in bronze is to go ST-crazy and back them up with some compys for protection against melee units. Cavs can be used for villager killing, but Minoa has camels so this can be risky. Anyway, given equal resources spent a Mace ST/compy army will defeat anything Minoa can build in bronze (on land that is). Hoppers are usually a waste, even with 3 PA Minoan compys still defeat them. Besides, Minoa can build hoppers too that are just as good in melee. Maybe a couple of hoppers charging (wobbling) in early in bronze can do some damage, but I definitely think that massed STs with compys behind is the way to go with Mace.

My 2 cents

Spam

[This message has been edited by Spam (edited 03-31-99).]

NoSoup4U
Inactive
posted 03-31-99 11:36 AM ET (US)     7 / 16       
I would tool rush the minoan player with mace and then go cav for a quick knock out. How many compy obessessed minoan players even build a stable?? Cav has no upgrade times as someone previously said. If you posed this question instead as Yamoto vrs. Minoan how would you play it?? Rush and then attack with cav to prevent upgrade to comps, build barracks near his ranges and pump out slingers and cav, end of story.

As for the full blown bronze war everyone is talking about, massed ST blows away minoan comps, end of story, close the book.

Bolshi_Basci
Inactive
posted 03-31-99 12:06 PM ET (US)     8 / 16       
Hehe Nosoup lets face it you would tool rush a Shang with Hittite.

Seriously though Mace has the military to beat Minoa mainly through ST. But the Mace steamroller is not only slow in movement its slow to get going. You need ST and hoppers which OK you can build immediately, but they require the academy and the siegeworkshop at 200 wood a piece once bronze. You need to wait for compies. You need a strong boom to produce these kind of resources quickly. On the other hand you need to have tool rushed to slow the opponent down enough to get to use them on his bronze. All this time he has been wheeling around and your vills have been crawling. BTW crawling vills are damn easy to kill.... Mace is particularly vulnerable to raiding.
It isn't easy to exploit Mace and in my experience their dominant timeframe isn't as long as you might imagine.

[This message has been edited by Bolshi_Basci (edited 03-31-99).]

NoSoup4U
Inactive
posted 03-31-99 12:14 PM ET (US)     9 / 16       
Alright Bolshi...other than the fact I feel I know you but you remain unnervingly anonymous, I would like to set th record straight I would never rush Shang with Hittite ....because they don't get slingers.

I love having a reputation for doing something, I almost don't have to post anymore, I could just put my name and a "No text" sign after it. But lets get real about this discussion, if minoan and mace bronze at the same time Mace should win hands down. The wood cost for the compie upgrades pays for one workshop and ST comes out right away. As for your raiding comment against unwheeled mace villagers I agree, but this is minoan vrs. mace right? The dreaded fast compie rush? The game is certainly lost if it goes to iron with minoan having the upper hand but in bronze the MACE ST's are gonna tear apart comps.

Nineveh
Inactive
posted 03-31-99 12:21 PM ET (US)     10 / 16       
Finally, something I can argue about!

I will agree that Mace vs Minoa in bronze should go to Mace as long as they kit hard enough to keep the Minoan from ironing. If I were Minoa vs Mace I would be thinking "iron jump" the whole game. Once in iron range 12 heles are unstoppable by Mace.

But...
It is a given that Mace will have poorer econ due to full-cost boats and no wheel. Thus...

A Mace player making comps is making a poorer unit than a Minoa player making comps for MORE cost! (Cheap boats = more food)

Verdict=dont make Mace Comps vs Minoa

However, half price ST are a better unit against Minoa than Minoa ST are vs Mace (unless Mace Comps) and cost half price.

Verdict = Mace ST are a must vs Minoa

Mace Hops cost slightly more but with 3 PA will threaten slow comps who fire on ST instead. Great protection of ST vs melee units.

Verdict = use mace hops vs ST.

What I am saying is that I would go ST/Hops vs Minoa, because Mace comps are very much inferior to Mace ST. Why would you want your Macedonian comps engaging Minoan comps? That is a clear loss, right?

Throw in some Mace ST with them and then your comps can get close enough to kill the Minoan comps...and get splattered by Mino ST!

If you make Hoppers with the Food/Gold for comps you get a unit that can wreak total havoc in a compy horde if they can get there. And ST firing on them will buy time to get there!

Just my opinion...

Making comps vs a minoan is not an effective counter imo.

NoSoup4U
Inactive
posted 03-31-99 12:25 PM ET (US)     11 / 16       
Couldn't agree with you more Ninevah. The comp upgrade costs mace a siege workshop or 2 ST's whichever way you look at it. I would also consider making a few cav to breeze by the minoan compies and look for minoan gold miners.
Nineveh
Inactive
posted 03-31-99 12:45 PM ET (US)     12 / 16       
Gee NoSoup, what's it like to have a reputation? If I had just written no text after my name people would think my post said "Minoan compies will rule Mace like helos do!"

I didn't finsh that last post, so..

Lets look at some matchups:

Mace uses: ST
Minoa counters with camels/cav
Mace uses: ST/Hops
Minoa counters with... Hops?
Mace uses: ST/Hops/Comps
Minoa counters by ironing
Mace uses: Comps/ST
Minoa counters with Comps/ST
Mace uses all-seeing Cav for quick strikes
Minoa uses Cav for quick strikes on slower villagers

As far as I can see the hardest thing for Mino to counter is ST/Hops. If a mino goes straight hops they will have the best chance to win since as many Mace hops will get hit by rocks as Mino. In this situation and only this I would make 10-15 comps to kill Minoa hoppers.

I haven't explained everything, so if anyone wants to rip me give me a chance to back up what I said first...

On the subject of cav strikes
Far-seeing cav running by comps vs goldies doesn't seem likely. First off you must find the goldies and then your cav have to survive long enough to do damage... if the new comps are popping out near the goldies and there are a few camels in the area your light raiding force is done.

If a mino hits Mace it is much the same. If there are hops in the area you will die miserably. If range 11 comps hit your goldies they can retreat and be gone before you can get units there if you are mining on the edge of town.

Moral: Build unit-producing buildings near gold miners as Mino/Mace.

Well, thats it for now. Look for my dock first guide in the Academy just as soon as I finish it Oh BTW Zen I am writing a dock first guide. (Forgot to tell my superior)

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-Nineveh, "Minister for Compy Equality"
ICQ 16407576

NoSoup4U
Inactive
posted 03-31-99 12:51 PM ET (US)     13 / 16       
Sorry Ninevah, I just couldn't find the time to blast your compy loving reputation I thought everyone knew about that.

To clarify, I don't recommend running any unit by comps. The cav should be doing a bit of sneaking, even a compie can't be in two places at once,fighting an ST & Hopper force and raiding cav.

Also, defending with Hoplites against a fast unit DOES NOT WORK. When mace hoppers close on a raiding party just run to the next group of peons doing something else to kill. At this point I would like to share a favorite pontificating maxim which I still think is true.

WALL, you will lose if you don't, especially with a non-wheeled civ

No walled MACE = DEAD MACE against anyone who raids from min 15-18

Cherub Sting
Clubman
posted 03-31-99 12:56 PM ET (US)     14 / 16       
well i only have one thing to say here, which is that minoa completely owns mace in iron
Field_General
Clubman
posted 03-31-99 01:14 PM ET (US)     15 / 16       
Well, I' a Minoan fanatic, so this should be taken with a grain of salt.

The only worthwhile attributes of mace is their half price st's, and their +2 LOS.

Their +3 PA is nice, but they still get shredded by comps. Easily.

The Minoan will have a MUCH better economy on water maps, and a little better elsewhere due to the wheel.

Minoan comps will shred EVERYTHING but ST's. One tactic might be to build cav and St's. then, the cav can rush the comps, and hopefully not enough comps will target the st's to kill them before they get in range.

Minoan does get camels, and I almost always build a few.

So, it's a close call. I like Minoan better, though. More versatile. It would be easy for a Minoan to take out a Macedonian completely, but I don't think it would be that easy for a mace to take out a Minoan completely.

Will have to try Mace sometime...

smoking_mirror
Inactive
posted 03-31-99 02:16 PM ET (US)     16 / 16       
A few things here -

Its 1v1 so how each performs in iron isn't as big as it would be in a team game.

Its a land-water map so Minoa will outboom the Mac and most likely own the sea and 10 spaces in from the coast.

Minoa actually has the best raiding unit of the 2 (camels) in early bronze and can keep raiding Mac cause they don't get the wheel.

For that reason I always make compies with Mac because they must have them for vill defense against fast units like cav/camels/CAs. Also, they're an auxillary to STs, they're the best at keeping cav/camels/hops off of their siege.

Mac has a slightly better chance to tool rush.

Of course, they have the best counter to Minoa's prized unit, the 11 range compie.

All-in-all I think that Mac does ok because they're STs are made for fighting Minoa, but I'd still rather have Minoa. Camels and war galleys early are going to put Mac immediately on defense and with less resources.

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