You must be logged in to post messages.
Please login or register

Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition
Moderated by Suppiluliuma, PhatFish, Fisk, EpiC_Anonymous, Epd999

Hop to:    
Welcome! You are not logged in. Please Login or Register.15 replies
Age of Empires Heaven » Forums » Age of Empires / Rise of Rome / Definitive Edition » Persian Dicussion
Bottom
Topic Subject:Persian Dicussion
Saga
Inactive
posted 03-29-99 12:07 PM ET (US)         
Once again I have hit a stall point in my AOE/ROR days. So I am revisitting some lesser played civs, namely the Persians in this post. I found it weird that their hunting bonus does not apply to fish. I must admit still I have pulled off some nice bronze and tool times with these guys, but beyond an initial rush you are doomed to lethargic resource gathering. The lack of the wheel is a big enough problem. Clearly this is a technology everyone should have. Whether or not chariots should be available is another story. Take phoenician for example, clearly they just dominate is every way over Persia except for possibly rushing. I find also that the balance of gold civs, to wood civs is heavily warped. If you look at the dominance of wood civs I think you will find 80% or more (a guess) playing these wood civs. Its basically a blank check giving the abundance of wood. The superiority of gold units with the except of seige weapons is all matched to a lesser scale by wood. The scythe chariot upgrade is rediculous. Try playing macedonian against phoenican and egypt (this happened to me in random) Hmmm I seemed to strayed from my persian topic here. Back to the point. I think this civ has some potenetial, but the lack in range (wood upgrades, lack of wheel, & dependancy on gold is a rough one to overcome) I must admit those elephants are sure nice though, but I mean realistically what else do they got, cav? It cost less gold for the elephant I think, and archery range units?? You got to be kidding with an 8 range max your triemes get pummeled by what is it 13 range war galleys buy hittite and everyone else's higher max. The lack of basically all market upgrades destroys any hopes of a successful economy. Despite all my griping I am liking this civ, I'm not sure why though. In conclusion I was curious as to whether anyone has had any success and using which strategies did you have success with? I enjoy a small tool rush success often, and even a quick bronze rush but the dependancy on gold slows down my iron which is already hurting because of my slacker workers who refuse to accept the fact that the wheel might be a good idea for them to learn. Any ideas?
AuthorReplies:
FWH_meo
Inactive
posted 03-29-99 01:10 PM ET (US)     1 / 15       
I'v been playing persian some lately too and heres what i'v found. After reading the sheriffs guide to peria and following it a couple of games i found it best to build a fishing fleet. Exspecially if i iron jump. I usually find myself hitting iron between 19-22 min but i'm extremely short of food and wood. 10 boats seems to change this.

If i'm not iron jumping then i'll usually try to send some camals and cavs to the enemy base to hit his peons. After this i'll try to iron because i dont care to stay bronze too long with persia, because they have a crappy bronze. Once iron i pump out the eles and maybe a few preist since persian doesnt get chars or CA. IMO if persian just had chars or CA they would be a great civ, not having chars or CA and of course the wheel is the only thing keeping them from being a dominate civ. They already have a good seige, temple, and stable. They have semi good boats but not getting the 2nd and 3rd woodcutting upgrades hurts them.

FWH_meo (zone name is FWH_jethro)

Saga
Inactive
posted 03-29-99 02:48 PM ET (US)     2 / 15       
FWH-
I agree fishing will help to offset our terrible food shortage, but I seem to have a hard problem dealing with the seas. The lack of wood cuttiing upgrades totally limits your ability to wage a naval war to protect your fleet. I find that maps such med and cont persian suffer miserably. These type of maps end with who owns water. More so with med since the sea is closer all around. I think wood management is the real key to persian. I am beginning to think as fun as persian is its very hard to dominate any game without fishing. I find that with decent partners who realize the seas need to be held persian can make a great partner. I find often that I am pressing one opponent to have his partner come in and hit my boats. Once this happens its just a battle to stay alive and hope your team wins back the sea (highly unlikely).
Imperius_Jim
Inactive
posted 03-29-99 03:44 PM ET (US)     3 / 15       
Yeah, given equal opponents, Persia will pretty much always lose the sea in Bronze since the lack of Artisanship kills both their woodgathering and galley range in relation to other tribes. If you go 1 on 1 in a sea map with Persia you're definitely going to want to hit him on land early. Take out his choppers and his range and gathering bonuses don't mean so much.

I love Persia and I have a good success ratio with them in 1v1s but I rush in 95% of my games. Given Persia's crappy bronze (apologies, CD), they need to score an early blow to give them a chance to hit Iron.

As to chariots, I agree they're needed, in fact in the event of a miracle where Ensemble actually considered balance-patching this game, I'd offer the following changes (feel free to disagree):

1. Give Persia the wheel, Scythe Chariots, and Siegecraft. This would give them one decent non-gold unit and would make their slingers fully upgradeable. They would have full Barracks and Stable (all upgrades for all units) and full priests as well as wheeled jihady siegecraft villies.

2. Remove Catapult. Only because the cat in conjunction with Siegecraft would necessitate giving them Heavy cats. Giving them just the stone thrower would make both the workshop and archery range a waste of wood but I think the full stable would balance that out. This would remove the obvious counter to a ballista/hele horde but Persia's chopping deficiency makes amassing a group of cats on short notice a tough proposition anyway. Those speedy dumbos can make a mess of massed heles if you make enough of them to actually get to the target.

Any comments? A lot of folks think Coinage, the Plow and/or Artisanship should be added but if you concentrate all their advantages to one building the woodcutting loss doesn't hurt as much (although like I said at the beginning, they'll still lose the sea in Bronze.)

Breydel
Clubman
posted 03-29-99 04:57 PM ET (US)     4 / 15       
I didn't read all replies here so sorry if I posted something double (I haven't got a lot of time since I got the Gamestar magazine today with the AoK demo video in it (lucky me! ).

When I play Persia I try to fully go shorefish/deer/ele to tool combined with fishboats from 2 docks. Bronze times are VERY nice then and a couple of camels are build in no time! A non waller (especially CA civ or compie civ) is dead before his archers are researched! Conclusion: Persia can be a damn fast civ IMO! Highly underestimated. When I see slow civ games I always join them with Rome or Persia if they allow me .

------------------

Breydel

"Of all Gaul, the Belgae are the bravest" -Julius Caesar, 58 B.C.

NoSoup4U
Inactive
posted 03-29-99 04:59 PM ET (US)     5 / 15       
Actually this is kind of a response as well as a question. Is it everyone's opinion that the water in med or continental is so ciritcal? Hence the serious difficulty with persian? Sure if I am unmolested I will fish well into iron but for the most part I fish until challenged, move my boats or tower the shore for a bit of piece of mind. I almost never build a huge navy to respond from minute 12 to minute 30, I just don't find it worth it. While fighting heavily in bronze I still iron between 25-30 minutes.

As for the comment from my carthaginian post regarding persian's inability to iron without farming or fishing I disagree. While I'm popping down 5 or 6 TC's and spreading out, elles and berries are plentiful to allow attainment of iron. While a 20 elle army or the war elle upgrade are a different matter and require some farming at that point the 75 wood per farm shouldn't be a big deal.

Just some thoughts, I certainly don't have problems beating people with this "sucky" civ.

P.S. Sorry breydel we were both posting at the same time, I also shore fish and am very fast with this civ. For fun, play persia on reveal where you can pick out the six elle's together and pit them. YOUR TIMES ARE ABSURD!

[This message has been edited by NoSoup4U (edited 03-29-99).]

[This message has been edited by NoSoup4U (edited 03-29-99).]

Ender
Guest
posted 03-30-99 07:00 AM ET (US)     6 / 15       
well last time this subject came up I wrote a very long post explaining why everyone is wrong about going iron with persia, don't feel like writing it again. There bronze isn't that bad, they get everything you need except of course the wheel, 2nd wood upgrade and the chariots. In iron they are completely crippled, elephants just don't win games in general, short ranged horse archers, triremes that can't hold the sea since they are missing 2 upgrades, still no wheel, no coinage, no ballistics, no academy units. In general I'd say if you don't win the game in tool or bronze with persia you should lose. There isnt' a civ that I'd say persia can beat in iron given equal villager counts, I'd expect even yamato to be able to beat them, though it would be close since yamato is horrible in iron as well.
Spam
Clubman
posted 03-30-99 10:18 AM ET (US)     7 / 15       
I almost always use barracks units with Persia in the late game. They have the third best Longswordsmen/Legions in the game (full storage pit upgrades) and once you have all the necessary upgrades they don't require a huge economy to produce in quantity. Full rax, fast elephants, horse archers (short range doesn't matter much vs villagers), range 14 catapults, full priests, powerful triremes - not too shabby in my view. Their main weakness is terrible vulnerability to villager raids.

My 2 cents

Spam

Ender
Guest
posted 03-30-99 12:55 PM ET (US)     8 / 15       
okay lets look at persia again.


Barracks - like spam said these are good, 3rd best in the game.

Stables - fast elephants, which still lose to every unit that kills a slow elephant heavy cav, no scythe chariots. Well with persias economy you will have fewer elephants that other civs, also the lack of scythes hurts a ton, I'd say average or slightly above average stables.

Priests - all upgrades, no coinage, no chariot archers to take out others priests... all other full priest civs are better, so just average priests.

Academy - none, worst in game.

Siege - catapults without ballistics, worse than a stone thrower with ballistics. Below average siege.

Archery - short range fast elephant archers, short ranged horse archers. Average archery units.

Docks - double strength short ranged triremes, taking into account the lack of wood upgrades you will lose the sea against any other trireme civ, average docks.

Towers - no ballista towers, low range towers, probably worse than full yamato and minoan since the range really matters for towers. Below average.

Economy - no wheel, no coinage, missing 2 wood upgrades, missing farm upgrades, no units that require just wood besides ships. Worse economy in the game hands down.


So above average stables, good barracks, average or below everything else with the worst economy by far in the game leads to a pretty crappy iron age civ.

Imperius_Jim
Inactive
posted 03-30-99 04:10 PM ET (US)     9 / 15       
Ender, I agree with about everything you say. Unless I'm in a team game, I always plan on winning in Tool or early Bronze (doesn't always happen but that's the plan.) Shooting for an Iron jump in 1 on 1 is suicide. Even if you somehow manage to get there without a fight, you're not going to have the economy to overcome your opponent. Persia has to rush to level the playing field. I even rush if I'm on a wing in a team game.

Oh, and you're also being too kind to Persia's triremes. They're not double-strength but "1.5 x normal" strength. Factor in their lack of range and Persia's sorry wood capacity. Shorthand: they suck.

Countering enemy priests was actually a big factor in my proposal to give Persia Scythe Chariots. With no decent archers, they need a priest killer and SC area damage would do nicely. Even losing all your scythes would be worth it if it meant your Armored Ellie horde had a little breathing room.

P.S. Thanks for bringing up Ballistics. Persia definitely needs it.

Donovan_Darius
Inactive
posted 03-30-99 05:30 PM ET (US)     10 / 15       
uh...everyone who doesn't get ballistics needs it. But on the upside concerning Persia, their Legions are GOOD. Cheap as hell too. I think Greece is worse 'cause at least Persia can hang with you until Iron Age, while Greece just gets blown away before every reaching the Iron Age. I'd also rather have poor ranged HA's than NO HA's at all. Hell, no archers, period with Greece. What a joke, at least give them Improved Bowmen, I mean geez.
This discussion is about Persia, so I'll say that their Trireme's are average at best, while their Iron Age is so sucky I would never waste the 1000food and 800gold on it. I'd invest those in tons of Camels and Cavalry. That's only way I can see it. If you don't get good ranged units, use melee units.

------------------
Discourage inbreeding: Ban country music.

Elijeh
Clubman
posted 03-30-99 08:14 PM ET (US)     11 / 15       
ender, yeah, persias iron is just suckys, in the long term! However, a persian player who can KO one player wit ha heavy bronze camel rush, and iron in 24 and make 3 eles off the bat, then make a buncha ships for fishing will be very dangerous.

Ask Strat_D_Baron..he was the unfortunate reciever of this, a heavy camel rush, and then i made a buncha Eles and smeared his allies!

FanatiC KaBaN
Clubman
posted 03-30-99 09:37 PM ET (US)     12 / 15       
Damn Saga, you wrote one big long... words.. paragraph...

Persians rule at DM

Saga
Inactive
posted 03-31-99 01:03 AM ET (US)     13 / 15       
Re: Elijeh
24 mins?? Thats pretty rocking considering the camel rush. Was this with water? I assume so. Anyways I've been encountering a problem as of late with minoian. How do you guys handle those comps? St's? I usually dont have the wood. Maybe persia is more of a 1v1 civ then a 3v3 civ... I usually play 3v3. Maybe I will get back into rated.
_Saga
Ender
Guest
posted 03-31-99 06:34 AM ET (US)     14 / 15       
Except if you had time to camel rush my allie you'd never build those elephants since i would of had a large bronze army attacking you. I agree that persia isn't bad in bronze, I'm not saying persia sucks, I'm just saying in iron they suck. 3 elephants wouldn't scare me at 20 minutes, they'd run into a pack of archers and die, elephants are useless in very small groups.
NoSoup4U
Inactive
posted 03-31-99 11:26 AM ET (US)     15 / 15       
Ender,

How many CA? 20? If you move the elles right 3 elles take down 20 CA. Anyway I agree with you regardless.

[This message has been edited by NoSoup4U (edited 03-31-99).]

You must be logged in to post messages.
Please login or register

Hop to:    

Age of Empires Heaven | HeavenGames